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Post by hhtcallotments on Mar 4, 2016 12:46:05 GMT
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Post by murrayc on Apr 4, 2016 15:05:16 GMT
I’ve just received the invoice for our allotment plot from the Town Council. Included with the invoice and the usual covering letter that reminds you to keep your plot tidy, not to cause nuisance, and not to deposit rubbish, is a questionnaire. The questionnaire refers to a recent meeting of the council’s Environmental & General Purposes committee where some questions were asked and proposals made, and seeks to gain the views of plotholders at Oathall Avenue and America Lane on a number of issues. Some of those issues overlap with discussion threads on this forum. It concludes by saying that once responses have been collated the Environmental & General Purposes committee “may consider changing its allotment policy.....If you do not reply we will conclude that you are satisfied with the current allotment policy”. Finally the questionnaire calls for suggestions for Agenda items for the Allotment Holders Meeting on Monday 18th April to be either returned with the questionnaire, through the Forum itself, by telephoning a Town Hall number, or email to the Council. I think the issues raised by some of the questions are so important that I would urge members of the forum not to respond until they have had a chance to voice their own views, to listen to those of other plotholders, and hear the responses of the council at the 18th April meeting. I believe that many of the issues that have caused so much discussion here – not conducting regular and transparent inspections, the maintenance of the waiting list and release of some plots to new applicants, provision of services – have come about because there is not a consistent and clear policy regarding allotments at the moment, and that application of the rather sketchy procedures that do exist have been made ad hoc over a number of years, leading to contradictions and sometimes to perceived injustice. I would entirely support a public consultation leading to a complete review of the council’s allotment policy that would result in a new and more comprehensive one being researched , but I do not think that failure to respond to another piecemeal selection of changes should be regarded as endorsing the current patchwork. I am also surprised to see the inclusion of questions 5 and 6, about the desirability of setting up an Allotment Association to run the council-managed sites, since the feeling of the last plotholders meeting was very much against this. Certainly the pros and cons of the subject need to be aired much more fully than simply responding to yes/no questions on a form. 20160401Questionnaire.pdf (979.27 KB) From comments made since the September meeting I suggest the following items should go on to the agenda for April 18th and I urge other America Lane and Oathall Avenue plotholders to post their own suggestions and amendments: Plot inspections: the process, who inspects, and the action to be taken Waiting lists: numbers of applicants and plots transferred to be published Skips and other ancillary services Plot sizes: standards , legacy entitlements and new plot awards Support for plotholders: the forum and council website and other communications Allotment associations and direct council management of plots |
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bridgey
Clearing the weeds
Posts: 60 
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Post by bridgey on Apr 4, 2016 16:43:15 GMT
Know a bit about this one having taken wilbara to the environment
Meeting in question and collecting him.
He had some ideas to put forward to the committee ,he didn't mention
Anything to me about what was put on the forum today.
So it must have been discussed after he left.
Obviously they wanted secrecy.
Your big question you must ask yourself is why.
Sounds to me like certain people did not want things discussed
Before the questionnaire was sent out.
How honest is that!
Have the debate first and then fill in the qustionaire.
In the meantime ask your local COUNCIIOR WHY THE SECRECY
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Post by wilbarra on Apr 5, 2016 8:04:08 GMT
i was at the meeting in question and most certainly there was no mention of a questionaire while in the time i was there.
also as there was only three councillors plus the chairman it is hardly a form that had full council approval.
the question of whether the america lane site should be run by the council or an association has never been an issue with
plot holders and should not have been included in any questionaire of the kind we have received.
the question of association or not should be dealt with as a separate issue at a later date and discussed fully at
a special meeting by all tenants before any decision is reached.
not this back door method (a method del boy his self would have been proud of) that has been tried here.
here are a few reasons why this issue should be openly debated before any decision is reached.
since 1998 when Tony Blair HAD HUGE CHUNKS OF THE ALLOTMENT ACT put into the human rights act and the european
act tenants on autherity owned land have more rights than on association land.
as a tenant on autherity owned land you even have rights under united nations directive.
you will lose all these rights if you vote for an association.
you must also be prepared to give up one sunday a month to do such chores as cleaning the ditches that run either side
of the plot.
take your turn to clean the toilet.
take your turn to cut the grass areas that are now done by council staff.
cut back the hedges.
and all the other jobs that are so well done, by the council ground staff.
very soon the gates at the entrance of the will need to be replaced are you prepared to dig deep in your pocket and pay for new gates.
i could go on.
just ask yourself one more question why is it only the town hall staff that keep dragging this up.
no one else does.
by all means have a proper debate on the subject but not throw it in a questionaire.
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Post by aloathall on Apr 5, 2016 15:14:37 GMT
The council is asking us, would we like to pay more money for the improvement of continuing to have unlimited water? I have read this on the councils questionnaire several times and I am either dismayed by their bad writing or amazed by an attempt to sell us an increase in fees while suggesting its for an improvement in service when we already have it ( unlimited water that is)!!!
I am starting to look at the cost of allotments in other towns it already looks to me as if we are currently paying more than Horsham or Brighton for our vegetable growing. The median cost per rod in the UK is around £6.00 per rod so while we are not the highest we get very little for our rent compared to other boroughs.
I do agree that there is a problem with new allotments, the turnover is huge but I think that is less about the size of the Quarter plots being allocated and more about the condition in which the plots are handed over plus the knowledge base of some new holders.
I have seen a new plot holder sprinkling ant powder on salad crops "in case the ants eat the leaves", risky ?you bet here is what it says on the packet:Ingestion – unlikely occupational hazard. Deliberate ingestion could lead to neurological signs and symptoms such as ataxia, tremors or convulsions." The actual problem was flea beetle by the way chemicals for use om food crops need to be checked to see that they do not harm humans..
At Oathall most plots are handed over with a good covering of couch grass etc.....the enthusiastic new holder digs like crazy and then a couple of months later having recovered they come back to plant something....the couch rhizomes which they did not know needed removing have all resprouted and they have a younger fresher sward of couch than they started with. Exit new plot holder for the rest of the year in all likely hood. This has happened so many times-the other variation being they pay to rotivate and the same thing happens . Chemicals can be used and the next plot holder will have no idea of what remains in the soil. I have seen evidence of strong herbicides being splashed around in common areas and onto other peoples crops.
My suggestion is that new plot holders are asked to pay a one off fee to cover the cost ( without profit) of some introduction to the allotments and some good practical advice about how to get crops. If people succeed and get fresh produce they will keep their allotments up and some will become expert in time. The rapid turnover problem is bad for other plotholders the council and new people who should be the future of the allotment movement.
Charging pensioners full price is I believe really retrograde as the best body of knowledge and experience on the allotments are the pensioners and people who go several days a week who may be disabled or unemployed.
I do not usually use my qualifications in correspondence but for the record A@Oathall BSc Agricultural Botany (Hons) MAg. Sci. Reading University
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Post by Stuart@AmericaLane on Apr 6, 2016 9:51:24 GMT
So here are my views for what they are worth, in no particular order.
I think wilbarra makes some excellent points about the responsibilities of an association running the site. Some that had not occurred to me. Plus the advantages in rights associated with a council managed site over an association. I have always found the council very cooperative and easy to deal with regarding matters concerning my plot so see no reason why that should change. From what I can see they manage the waiting list fairly. Sure there are probably things that could be improved. The inspections and the skip for AL being two examples which have been openly debated here already.
Regarding cost. I doubt that the money raised by our allotment fees covers the costs of running the site. I would hope that is not the intention. Not everything in life has to be or should be directly cost effective. I pay a large amount in council tax every year as do most other plots holders I am sure which is my contribution to running local services. I dont use all the services but I understand it is a collective thing that we all contribute to and gain from in different ways. If the intention is for allotments to pay for themselves then I suggest that is destined to fail. The cost would become too high for most ordinary folk to justify. But allotments are a community asset and have multiple benefits to the community. The current system of council managed sites with a small contribution from the plot holders is the correct one in my view.
Regarding new plot holders. Allotments all over the country are passed on in differing states of repair. Sometimes you get lucky and get one in perfect condition. Sometimes you get one covered in brambles. Depending how keen you are to have an allotment will determine if you take the plot or wait for a 'better' one. Once you have a plot there is plenty of help available. Gardening is probably the most written about, broadcast about, talked about etc etc topic one could hope to get involved in. A bit of simple research will reveal pretty much everything you need to know. Or you can talk to your new plot neighbours who are generally more than pleased to offer help and advice. A year to two ago the council asked if anybody would be prepared to be a mentor to new plot holders and I put my name forward. I've not been asked and we have had quite a few new plot holders since. So in short there is plenty of help already available and I dont see a need to charge a cost for that. Neither do I see the need for plots to be prepared for new holders by the council. Plot holders have to take a bit of responsibility right? Like reading the clear instructions on the chemicals they use. It's not that hard is it?
I think the current system is a good one, the cost is about right and yes there is, as always room for improvement.
That is just my view, It was not my intention to annoy or offend anybody so please don't be.
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Post by wilbarra on Apr 7, 2016 17:16:34 GMT
on the subject of the backdoor approach that the town hall took as regards to an association it has occured to me that it dosnt
have to be yes or no to an association.
there is a third way which has worked for many years on a lot of sites i have visited over the years.
it is one i and couple of other tenants put forward many years ago but was given short shift then because because there was a
certain section of the council at the time that was hell bent on selling the america site off for building.
never admitted though.
the way forward i believe is this:
the site elects a committee of three or four members.
they are responsible for the day to day running of the site and any complaints that anybody has, must go through them to the
town hall.
this committee would also be responsible for things such as inspections and any minor disputes that flair up on occasions.
the council remain in full control of the site
the council remain responsible for maintenance of the site in the same way as they do now.
the advantages to the council are that while remaining in full control of the site they shed all responsibility in the running of
site onto the tenants themselves.
the advantages to the tenants is that they have someone they can complain to there and then .
i believe that a lot of the disputes between tenant and council that have arisen in the past would not have arisen at all if
this system had been in place.
you are also in control of your own site
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Post by wilbarra on Apr 7, 2016 17:20:28 GMT
ps. to the above as tenants you keep all your rights of tenancy
a lot of them you would lose if you become an association
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Post by murrayc on Apr 7, 2016 19:16:14 GMT
There is a very good presentation made by the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners (NSALG) thatlooks at different models of associations and then considers the pros and cons, both for the allotment holders and for the council of the association approach. www.bhaf.org.uk/documents/Paul_Neary._Allotment_Associations_and_Self_Management.pdfWithout going into the detail of the arguments for and against, it seems to me that wilbarra has come up with something that looks very like Model 1 in the NSALG analysis. Perhaps that would be something to discuss on 18 April? |
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bridgey
Clearing the weeds
Posts: 60
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Post by bridgey on Apr 7, 2016 20:26:24 GMT
Good idea that should have been taken up years ago.
It also gives a chance for younger tenants to get
Involved in the site.
Grab hold of this idea with both hands and go forward
With it.
As willbaba said you take control of your site without
Cost and the council dont get agro.
To me its a win win situation on both sides
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Post by hhtcallotments on Apr 8, 2016 14:32:11 GMT
Dear Allotment Holders
Any items you wish to be put on the forth coming Allotment Holders Meeting (18 April 2016), please forward your comments to the Town Clerk. The Email address is: townclerk@haywardsheath.gov.uk
Thank you
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bridgey
Clearing the weeds
Posts: 60
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Post by bridgey on Apr 9, 2016 12:01:28 GMT
Could an outsider add his thoughts?k
1.the questions on the form are meaningless in the way they
Were presented.
A good chance lost!
2.people are in general happy with the way the allotment
Warden runs things except for the inspection system, where
He or she fails dramactly.
3.are the people on the site now prepared to put their own
Time and money into the site as the likes of wilbara and his
Like have done in the past.
4.the lady who stated she had letters after her name but never used them so does wilbara only his is in horticulture
Not agriculture but it means nothing when it comes to
Allotments
5.while my connection is with the america lane site I do know
That there are plotholders on the other site who are long
Time show people.
These people along with wilbara and I believe the name is
Ken can all put the most important letters next to third
Name.
They are
V.e.a.g.
They stand for very experenced allotment gardener.
So why not scrap the tricky dicky questionnaire.
Get these people together under the chairmanship of the
Allotment warden and. Get them to come up with Paper of
Rules and idears that everyone can study and debate on at
A special conveaned meeting.
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Post by wilbarra on Apr 9, 2016 17:46:49 GMT
agree with a lot bridgey says but disagree strongly on others.
i agree that the running of the site should stay in the hands of the council.
i agree that the questionnaire should be scrapped, the way some of the questions were phrased was pointless.
for instance, the question how many times should there be an inspection has never been an issue(personally i support every two months).
the issue is the quality of those inspections and the fact when the inspections have taken place, a lot of the time the findings of that
inspection was vetoed by town hall staff if they disagreed with it.
to me that made the whole process a pointless exercise.
the same with the question what size plots do you want .
another pointless question.
the issue there is, how many of each size do you have.
you need all size plots.
where one person is perfectly happy with two and a half rod another needs more rod to pursue there hobby.
so the question should have been on the lines of how many of each size is needed on the site.
i go along with setting up a committee to thrash out a set of rules and then set them before a meeting to be discussed but strongly disagree that
the committee should consist of people like myself, what you want is a committee of young and old,old hands and newcomers.
thats the way forward.
i think there is a point to be made for the V.E.A.G. doing the inspections.
they have the know how to tell if a person is really trying or just being a waste of space.
why dont you volunteer to be one of them bridgey.
i also think that the the america lane site and the oatall site should be run as seperate items.
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Post by hhtcallotments on Apr 14, 2016 11:17:47 GMT
ALLOTMENT HOLDERS MEETING 18TH APRIL 2016 – 7pm
AGENDA
1. Welcome from Cllr Matthew Jeffers (Chairman of Environment and General Purposes Committee).
2. Notes of the Allotment Holders Meeting dated 7th September 2015
3. Update on Allotment Forum and other Forms of Communication
4. Interim results from Allotment Holders Questionnaire
5. Review of Council's Allotments Policy Update
6. General Administration of Council Managed Allotment Sites
• Plot inspections.
• Waiting lists.
• Skips and other ancillary services.
• Plot sizes.
• Allotment Associations versus direct council management of plots (discussion around options).
7. Site Matters
• Oathall Avenue
• America Lane – To consider two motions made by an Allotment Holder.
a) That the America Lane site remain directly controlled by the Town Council and that a committee of four America lane plot holders is formed and that plot holders commit any ideas they have on how to improve the site to any one of these members. They will then present these ideas together with any of their own at a meeting of just America lane plot holders. After approval by them the ideas will go forward to the next Town Council Environment and General Purposes meeting.
b) That the inspection team consist of longstanding plot holders Two from Oathall Avenue and two from America Lane and that they inspect both sites every two months.
• Summerhill Lane
• Vale Road
8. Any other business and date of next meeting.
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Post by murrayc on Apr 19, 2016 6:29:08 GMT
There was an excellent attendance and lots of input at the Allotment Holders Meeting last night. The Town Council will post the full minutes on this forum and on noticeboards shortly, but there are some important outcomes that I will list briefly now as they answer many of the issues raised in this thread.
• The limited feedback received from the questionnaire has shown overwhelming opposition to the idea floated that Associations be set up for the America Lane and Oathall Avenue sites and this will not be pursued by the Town Council
• There will be skips provided for non-compostable rubbish – wood, metal, plastics, masonry etc – and they will be available soon. Plotholders will be informed of the date of their arrival
• For a trial period there will be regular inspections carried out of the America Lane and Oathall avenue sites by a small group of experienced plotholders from both these sites, who will present their findings and recommendations for action to the Town Council
• For America Lane only it is proposed that a committee of no more than 4 plotholders will talk to the rest of the plotholders and seek their ideas on how the site can be improved. This feedback will provide vital input to the Town Council’s review of their Allotment Policy which will be presented during this summer. America Lane plotholders will be contacted directly by the Town Council with more details of this committee action shortly.
Many thanks to Councillor Jeffers for Chairing the meeting so well, to Mr Trice and Mrs Hewett for their management, and to all those participating and those contributing through the forum.
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